Quoting stefc:

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HD DVD spec is complete and has been since it launched.

How can the specs be complete when you are still trying to add things?  at first 45GB (dropped at the last minute)...51GB discs...increased bandwidth.  I think you get my point.

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No its in-movie experiences with advanced mode audio mixing as featured on many Universal and Warner HD DVDs.

Basically, this is just tic for tac.  HD DVD is not capable of Java games.  Blu-ray is, basically, capable of everything HD DVD is capable of.  HD DVD is HD-Lite (as many have named it).

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I count 150 BD releases from Sony, Fox, Disney, Buena Vista, Miramax and Lionsgate combined. 97 HD DVD releases from Universal. How can you pretend that the BD exclusive studios have put out much content. And we aren't even getting into the relative quality of the content (but here's a hint, most of the BD studios output is total garbage)

Assuming your count is correct, 150 > 97.  Therefore, if Blu-ray exclusive studios are not putting out much content, then what are HD DVD exclusive studios putting out?  HD DVD lovers are, of course, going to say most BD titles are garbage and HD DVD releases are much more appealing.  That seems to be at the core of HD DVD Evangelism.

The truth is that around 50% of ALL top box office hits for any given year are from Blu-ray exclusive studios.  Most of the others are from neutral studios.  'Nuff said.

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Underpriced? How many consumers tell the salesman in the shop "What i'm not paying that kind of price! I want to pay more! How dare you underprice your goods!!"

It is what it is.  If the company is taking a loss or making no money from their equipment, it is underpriced.  Consumers tend to be vampires, though.  They don't care if they put the companies that make their favorite products out of business.  They would pay $1 for a product that cost a company $10,000 to make, if they could.  Of course, that eventually means that company won't be around to make another product, but most don't care about that.  They live only in the short term.  That's what HD DVD was made for...to convince the short term thinkers to buy it over Blu-ray (the longer term format).  That might offend some people, but it is the truth.

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And like I said, IT SHOULDNT. It should use H.264 exclusively for its video, it should use PCM or TrueHD or DTS-HD MA for its audio and it should transcode that down to 640k DD and 1536 DTS for people without HDMI amps (ie me). If my 360 HD DVD can do it, so should my PS3 with BD.

These codecs are designed for sifferent things.  MPEG-2, according to the AVS links you provided, seems to be better at preserving film grain than VC-1 and AVC (especially at higher bitrates).  MPEG-2 can be encoded in real-time where the other two codecs can not be.

VC-1 seems to turn film grain into blocking artifacts and connects them.  VC-1 is a lot more efficient for low bitrate encodes.  That's what it was designed for...AVC as well.  These video codecs all have their place/uses.

On the audio side, why would you need to turn TrueHD into standard DD on the fly for your receiver?  Why not just have standard DD audio for your equipment in the first place?  I would think professional equipment might be better at that conversion process than an Xbox 360.  To me, it just doesn't make sense to try to use the Xbox 360 and add-on as a positive talking point.  The Xbox 360 doesn't even has a DTS decoder.  It just passes the DTS stream directly to your receiver to decode (bitstream).  Meanwhile, the PS3 has a built in DTS, TrueHD, and DD decoder (DTS-HD MA at some point).  DTS, DD, and 2 channel PCM can be sent to your receiver via optical cable.  Just about everything accept DTS-HD can be sent over HDMI to a capable receiver.  That can't be said of the Xbox 360 w/ add-on.  The Xbox 360 w/ add-on provides a gimped version of HD-Lite.

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Quoting stefc:

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HD DVD spec is complete and has been since it launched.

How can the specs be complete when you are still trying to add things?  at first 45GB (dropped at the last minute)...51GB discs...increased bandwidth.  I think you get my point.

I'm still trying to add things? I'm? Since when is my name "The DVD Forum"? Triple Layer HD DVD will never materialise as a commercial film format, as it seemingly wont be back compatible with existing players. The DVD forum correctly seem to feel that shafting early adopters is not an option ("Hello there Sony, what do you mean my launch BD player wont play back future BD software?"  )

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No its in-movie experiences with advanced mode audio mixing as featured on many Universal and Warner HD DVDs.

Basically, this is just tic for tac.  HD DVD is not capable of Java games.  Blu-ray is, basically, capable of everything HD DVD is capable of.  HD DVD is HD-Lite (as many have named it).

Total non-sequitor. Blu Ray movies ARE NOT CAPABLE of presenting IME. That is why there is no Batman Begins or Matrix on BD. Java games are not a useful extra for film lovers.

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I count 150 BD releases from Sony, Fox, Disney, Buena Vista, Miramax and Lionsgate combined. 97 HD DVD releases from Universal. How can you pretend that the BD exclusive studios have put out much content. And we aren't even getting into the relative quality of the content (but here's a hint, most of the BD studios output is total garbage)

Assuming your count is correct, 150 > 97.  Therefore, if Blu-ray exclusive studios are not putting out much content, then what are HD DVD exclusive studios putting out?  HD DVD lovers are, of course, going to say most BD titles are garbage and HD DVD releases are much more appealing.  That seems to be at the core of HD DVD Evangelism.

I'm not an Evangelist, I'm am a consumer OF BOTH FORMATS. If Universal can put out 100 movies in the past year and a bit, then there should be at least 3 or 4 hundred movies out from Sony, Fox, Disney, Buena Vista, Miramax and Lionsgate. 150 releases, (many of which are extremely poor) is what currently disappoints me about BD.

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The truth is that around 50% of ALL top box office hits for any given year are from Blu-ray exclusive studios.  Most of the others are from neutral studios.  'Nuff said.

So let's have them on Blu Ray disc eh? Plus some films that don't do big box office and are thus good movies worth owning...

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And like I said, IT SHOULDNT. It should use H.264 exclusively for its video, it should use PCM or TrueHD or DTS-HD MA for its audio and it should transcode that down to 640k DD and 1536 DTS for people without HDMI amps (ie me). If my 360 HD DVD can do it, so should my PS3 with BD.

These codecs are designed for sifferent things.  MPEG-2, according to the AVS links you provided, seems to be better at preserving film grain than VC-1 and AVC (especially at higher bitrates).  MPEG-2 can be encoded in real-time where the other two codecs can not be.

Rubbish, MPEG2 is lousy in all conditions. There is film grain and there is video noise, learn to recognise the difference.

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On the audio side, why would you need to turn TrueHD into standard DD on the fly for your receiver?  Why not just have standard DD audio for your equipment in the first place?  I would think professional equipment might be better at that conversion process than an Xbox 360.  To me, it just doesn't make sense to try to use the Xbox 360 and add-on as a positive talking point.  The Xbox 360 doesn't even has a DTS decoder.  It just passes the DTS stream directly to your receiver to decode (bitstream).  Meanwhile, the PS3 has a built in DTS, TrueHD, and DD decoder (DTS-HD MA at some point).  DTS, DD, and 2 channel PCM can be sent to your receiver via optical cable.  Just about everything accept DTS-HD can be sent over HDMI to a capable receiver.  That can't be said of the Xbox 360 w/ add-on.  The Xbox 360 w/ add-on provides a gimped version of HD-Lite.

If I watch a BD on my PS3, I can only listen to the 448k DD track, exactly the same quality as a DVD. If I watch an HD DVD on my 360, and it features a DD+, or DTS-HD or TrueHD track, and most of them do, I can listen to it transcoded to either 640k DD or 1536k DTS or even WMA Pro with a Pioneer receiver, all of which give me noticeably better sound quality than DVD. I'm just telling it like it is.

For people without hdmi (and its not just me) that fact that neither console has analog outs means that in terms of sound (if we ignore the realtive noise outputs of the 2 consoles!) you get a better experience from HD DVD on 360 than BD on PS3. If I had an hdmi receiver, I would get HD audio in its full glory from my PS3 and not from my 360, as even hdmi equipped 360s lack the ability to send multi channel pcm to an amp.

Quoting stefc:

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I'm still trying to add things? I'm? Since when is my name "The DVD Forum"? Triple Layer HD DVD will never materialise as a commercial film format, as it seemingly wont be back compatible with existing players. The DVD forum correctly seem to feel that shafting early adopters is not an option ("Hello there Sony, what do you mean my launch BD player wont play back future BD software?"  )

People do tend to get confused when "you" is used as a general term.  Replace "you" with "one".  That should clear the part up for you (specificly you...not the general or broad term "you").  I believe you and others got the point.  Both formats are not complete...period.

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Total non-sequitor. Blu Ray movies ARE NOT CAPABLE of presenting IME. That is why there is no Batman Begins or Matrix on BD. Java games are not a useful extra for film lovers.

Blu-ray movies themselves are not capable of IME.  The Blu-ray format, however, will have PiP (that's basically what IME is) incorporated in future titles.  Blu-ray does not have HD DVD's limitations.

So, you are assuming that PiP (IME) is useful for film lovers, right?  I would think film lovers wouldn't want a strange distracting icon popping up during the movie for a PiP window.  That's just the movie lover in me speaking, though.

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I'm not an Evangelist, I'm am a consumer OF BOTH FORMATS. If Universal can put out 100 movies in the past year and a bit, then there should be at least 3 or 4 hundred movies out from Sony, Fox, Disney, Buena Vista, Miramax and Lionsgate. 150 releases, (many of which are extremely poor) is what currently disappoints me about BD.

That is what MS calls it...HD DVD Evangelism.  They have even named a head of their HD DVD Evangelism department.  Just because you own both formats does not mean you aren't in the grips of HD DVD Evangelism (the conceptions and practices therein).

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So let's have them on Blu Ray disc eh? Plus some films that don't do big box office and are thus good movies worth owning...

Maybe you don't understand how to grow a format while maximizing profits or maybe you just don't care.  Companies are creating products for profit.  They don't do it just to put a little sunshine in your day.  The titles that you like will make it on Blu-ray (if it looks nice in HD), but within a reasonable time.  All you favorite titles are not going to be released within the same time frame.  Title releases for a new format has NEVER worked like that.  To expect it from Blu-ray studios is hardly being reasonable.

I have a lot of Blu-ray titles that did not do well in the box office (some I've never heard of before).  I enjoy most of them as well.

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Rubbish, MPEG2 is lousy in all conditions. There is film grain and there is video noise, learn to recognise the difference.

Too bad you are completely close minded about this.  There are more than a couple of MPEG-2 titles that have 5 star PQ from multiple reviewers.  That casts severe doubt on your first sentence being true.

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If I watch a BD on my PS3, I can only listen to the 448k DD track, exactly the same quality as a DVD. If I watch an HD DVD on my 360, and it features a DD+, or DTS-HD or TrueHD track, and most of them do, I can listen to it transcoded to either 640k DD or 1536k DTS or even WMA Pro with a Pioneer receiver, all of which give me noticeably better sound quality than DVD. I'm just telling it like it is.

You need to explain to me how you are listening to 448k DD track when BD DD is almost always at 640k.  Oh...you probably messed with your audio options on your PS3.  You need to go into your audio setting and select what your receiver can handle audio wise.  That is, like most things, due to operator error.

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For people without hdmi (and its not just me) that fact that neither console has analog outs means that in terms of sound (if we ignore the realtive noise outputs of the 2 consoles!) you get a better experience from HD DVD on 360 than BD on PS3.

Completely untrue (except the part about neither console having analog outs).  Where are you getting all this misinformation from?  That definitely sounds like HD DVD Evangelism to me.  Please provide something to back up this wild claim.

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Look at the prices for "300", "Blood Diamond", "The Departed", etc (Amazon.com).  YOU shouldn't lie.

Exact same SRP on Blood Diamond as the BD (with more content).  The rest are combos of course.  The recent Vacancy and Premonition were up there with combo prices, The Lookout and Wild Hogs are pricier as well.

Pipe down, kiddo.

Quoting Erik:

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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Look at the prices for "300", "Blood Diamond", "The Departed", etc (Amazon.com).  YOU shouldn't lie.

Exact same SRP on Blood Diamond as the BD (with more content).  The rest are combos of course.  The recent Vacancy and Premonition were up there with combo prices, The Lookout and Wild Hogs are pricier as well.

Pipe down, kiddo.

You are just reenforcing what I said.  They are basically the same or Blu-ray is cheaper for the same releases.  Obviously, HD DVD does not have the following day & date releases...Vacancy, Premontion, The Lookout, or Wild Hogs (which all of them are priced below the combo HD DVDs).  HD DVD owners don't have a choice whether or not to buy a combo disc, if they want that title (otherwise I wouldn't have included it in my post).  That's about as fair as it gets.

Quoting Erik:

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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Quoting Erik:

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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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Look at the prices for "300", "Blood Diamond", "The Departed", etc (Amazon.com).  YOU shouldn't lie.

Exact same SRP on Blood Diamond as the BD (with more content).  The rest are combos of course.  The recent Vacancy and Premonition were up there with combo prices, The Lookout and Wild Hogs are pricier as well.

You are just reenforcing what I said.  They are basically the same or Blu-ray is cheaper for the same releases.

For the fewer and fewer combo releases, yes.  Otherwise, no.  Need I remind you that combos feature both the HD and DVD versions, hence the extra bucks?  What was BD's excuse again?

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Vacancy, Premontion, The Lookout, or Wild Hogs (which all of them are priced below the combo HD DVDs).

A whole $1.03 less for the Sony titles!  Sorry, your bizarre non-logic ain't working here either.

Quoting Unicus69:

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You didn't really expect him to compare apples to apples did you?

Too true.

You're just talking off the top of your head aren't you?  Why do you keep showing everyone that I'm right and then act like you proved me wrong about something?  That is bizarre behavior.

I said the BDs are about the same or less expensive than the HD DVD discs (and referenced some titles).  You acted like that wasn't true and referenced some day & date release titles.  They ALL happened to be less expensive than day & date releases on HD DVD.  Then, I let you know that you are just proving my point about BDs being equal to or cheaper than HD DVD discs in price.  You respond by saying how much CHEAPER 2 BDs were in price compared to a day & date release on HD DVD (the other 2 you mentioned are about $4 CHEAPER than day & date HD DVD titles).

That is seriously twisted behavior.  You seem to be the exact type of person the HD DVD Evangelism movement is after.

Quoting spideymax:

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Just got on board and am here to say good morning and "Hello to everyone"

Welcome, spideymax! 

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:

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You're just talking off the top of your head aren't you?  Why do you keep showing everyone that I'm right and then act like you proved me wrong about something?  That is bizarre behavior.

It's your behavior, actually.  I've only disputed your silly claims about DB discs being cheaper and calling Patsa a liar.  The standard SRP for an HD DVD from, say, Universal is 29.98, Sony's aforementioned titles are 38.96.  Combos and identical releases (e.g. Disturbia) should not figure into this.

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You respond by saying how much CHEAPER 2 BDs were in price compared to a day & date release on HD DVD (the other 2 you mentioned are about $4 CHEAPER than day & date HD DVD titles).

*groans*  You're still ranting away about combo prices.  $29.98 is cheaper than $34.99 or $38.96 around these parts.

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That is seriously twisted behavior.

Something you, Sir, are in no position to even mention.

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You seem to be the exact type of person the HD DVD Evangelism movement is after.

Uh-huh...  And you've long been the founder of "Blu-ray's Witnesses."