Green for DoubleDownAgain. Someone will always do something. Also, keep in mind these feuds affect the tone of the whole board, not just whoever you're fighting with. If you think you are committed to peace, but go nuclear whenever anyone breaks it, you aren't commited to peace at all.

I have avoided calling anyone out, even in the moderation threads. It is necessary to talk about things that happened to talk about how they could have been handled differently, but the issue here is the tone of the boards and what is acceptable behavior, not any particular user. Some users may (and do) cause more problems than others, but that's not the point. For my part, I won't call anyone out except when directly responding to their behavior and then only to tell them why what they are doing is problematic, not speculate on their motives. I am not conditioning this on anyone else's behavior.

Mark:

Self-moderation? On a scale of 1 to 100 I'll give you a 95.  You slip from time to time, but don't we all. Pete and Kathy would score higher and i would score lower, but i won't say what I would give myself

Quoting CharlieM:

Quote:
Quoting Mark Harrison:

Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:

Quote:
Quoting Mark Harrison:

Quote:
The far more interesting question is would Skip use the red arrow and then move along? Or would he fight back and bring us right back to where we are today?  And obviously those same questions apply to others as well.

And for anything to work, means we also must self moderate (the best moderator for you is you).  There are a number of people that don't self moderate.  If you are thinking that this is the wrong response and I know its the wrong response, and do it anyway, that is a problem.

I don't mean to brag, but I feel I do self moderate. I've been VERY active (by my standards) in this latest round of complaining as well as the whole Unrated thing. I currently have 28 forums posts that have received reputation feedback.  I have 57 green arrows, 0 red arrows.  And to the best of my knowledge, I've never had a moderator edit anything I've written or issue me any kind of warning.

I realize you probably weren't addressing that directly at me.  But my point is that it's possible to speak your mind and complain about the state of the forums while not stepping too far out of line.  And it wouldn't be fair to assume that everyone taking part in this thread and the related threads is part of the larger problem here.  Of course I'm not saying that only one person is responsible either.  I wouldn't even say I'm innocent.  But if I've pushed the line, my feedback is telling my that I've yet to cross that line.

You don't have to be a troublemaker to recognize that things aren't currently working very well.  Nor are you a bad member for speaking up.  I don't view this as one group vs. the other group.  I view this as one large group asking Invelos for a positive change that would benefit everyone.  Some of those folks are as innocent as a newborn baby and some are hip deep in blood they've drawn.  But it is an overwhelming majority asking for change.  And it's certainly not fair to imply that they all hate Skip and want him gone. Heck, it's not even fair to assume that they all feel Skip is even the problem here.

You are correct, it wasn't directed at you in specific, but as a general comment to You as the group.

I don't think that everybody hates Skip.  I don't think 90% of those that responded to the poll think anything more or less about Skip, as opposed to the overall atmosphere of the forums.

I do acknowledge, that at times, and especially in these 2 forums concerning moderation, that things have gotten a little edgy with a few people.  This is the same issue we have in the overall forums.  It is a few people.  I try to stay civil, by I will admit, that I am not one to stay away.  I will comment on either side, but try to do it in more of an third party point of view.

Moderation would be nice.  I am not a big fan of long term banning, short of completely vile behavior.  You and I will both agree that racism, sexism, and xenophobia are not acceptable anywhere. 

But what most people do here, do not rise to those standards.  I do like the Idea of cooling off periods.  Conversations can get a bit heated and at times seem very personal.  They need to be curbed quickly, so they do not escalate.  Unfortunately, I do not think that we have 24hr moderation.  I think that there are large gaps in moderation , and short of getting "citizen" moderators involved, I don't think it will happen.

Invelos needs to be as consistent as they can be. 

When they are not moderating, or the short gaps in time, we will need to catch ourselves.  Maybe the proper term is not ignore, but maybe acknowledge the improper behavior "Bob that was not called for" (sorry if I offended and Bobs)[we don't need 20 people to do it either].  Our place is maybe to state that it is improper and leave it (red arrow if you like) but not necessarily why.  Telling someone why, when you are part of the discussion may come off improperly, and may escalate it.

We need to get out of this cycle of always calling someone to the mat, when someone perceives an insult or injustice.  Most people can also defend themselves, so we also need to quit getting into the fray, when we are not involved.

I am just as guilty of that as some in that regard, but I think as adults this is necessary.

Charlie

When you're good, you are good.

How many times have i told someone that they shouldn't get into something.

I had initially decided to walk away from this pitiful, ongoing debate but like an ugly scab I can't help but keep picking at it.

In regards to the moderation proposals, I'm for it. Most forums have them and anyone who thinks Invelos doesn't need them is clearly not interested in the ongoing health and well being of these forums and the Invelos community in general. Anyone who wants it doesn't have to have an agenda... they would just like to see some order, structure, recourse and closure as incidents arise. Anyone who is confident in their ability to control themselves, or self moderate if you will, then they have nothing to fear by an impartial but firm group of moderators and the clearly defined rules they have laid out for us. Those who are opponents of a moderation system clearly must feel that they have something to lose by it, or have little to no confidence in themselves to behave. For anyone who feels they can not conduct themselves within the confines of the moderation guidelines should post in the forums at their own risk.

Skip.... you lose more and more credibility with every reply you make. They are all just repetitive, rehashed, sad parodies of themselves that offer nothing new or constructive. You keep speaking of this olive branch that you are extending to those you have crossed swords with... offering your hand in peace and friendship. Here is the problem... for you, a resolution is only going to be acceptable if it's on your terms only. Terms that you really haven't defined. There is just no compromise in you whatsoever. Admit it, you aren't going to be happy unless every one of us says that we were wrong and you were right... and I'm sure you'd like us all to grovel while we do it. Sorry... ain't gonna happen.      And no... these are not attacks, they are observations that have been echoed repeatedly by a vast number of other members whom which I have no affiliation with. I do not belong to a club or gang geared towards singling you out. I merely share an increasingly common viewpoint with a lot of people who have voiced their displeasure as well.

I am however willing to meet you halfway. For the record I don't hate you or any other user on here. You are words on a screen to me and I have no real emotional investment in any of this. I do however strongly dislike behavior that unnecessarily ridicules a person simply because you do not like the questions they are asking or any other harmless dialogue they may put forth... just because you don't like it.

New customers are the lifeblood of any successful business and should be treated as such.  A co-operative and respectful atmosphere among the rest of the well established community here is also good for business. But lets take the business aspect out of the equation.... in the end, in any walk of life, it's just the right thing to do.

After reading Gerri's initial post, I believe it was well thought out, intelligent, and will work if it is implemented immediately and is strictly enforced. The fact that they came forth with the revised moderation rules shows a determination to not let this undermine their business. The are smart business people who would like nothing more than to simply focus their attention on the product, but they are not about to let a few poison pills or bad apples infect and eat away at their hard work from the inside out.

I predict that anybody whose makeup would suggest they might fall outside of the guidelines of 'acceptable' behavior in these forums will be dealt with... much more severely than in the past. For those individuals, it might be wise to have a session of introspection and ask yourselves just how much you want to be here. Personally, if I felt I didn't have the respect of my fellow forum members, I really don't know what would compel me to stay.

KC

*sigh*

I'm glad you put a lot of thought, consideration and originality into your reply. My utterly useless comments earned me 3 green arrows in the first 5 minutes after it was posted. Like I said... no willingness to compromise at all.

Just keep talking Skip... at the rate you are digging a hole for yourself you should be through to China before the long weekend is over.

KC out.

Sadly Geri, this thread is going the same way all such threads go. These people are not interested in civil discourse. they simply want spew poison, you are ultimately going tio have to lock this thread. I don't know right now what more I can do, I can promise these, ummm people (and I feel I must use that term loosely) that they will not get what they want from me, I am not into giving satisfaction to the bottom of the barrel.                  

Quoting Kinky Cyborg:

Quote:
I had initially decided to walk away from this pitiful, ongoing debate but like an ugly scab I can't help but keep picking at it.

In regards to the moderation proposals, I'm for it. Most forums have them and anyone who thinks Invelos doesn't need them is clearly not interested in the ongoing health and well being of these forums and the Invelos community in general. Anyone who wants it doesn't have to have an agenda... they would just like to see some order, structure, recourse and closure as incidents arise. Anyone who is confident in their ability to control themselves, or self moderate if you will, then they have nothing to fear by an impartial but firm group of moderators and the clearly defined rules they have laid out for us. Those who are opponents of a moderation system clearly must feel that they have something to lose by it, or have little to no confidence in themselves to behave. For anyone who feels they can not conduct themselves within the confines of the moderation guidelines should post in the forums at their own risk.

Skip.... you lose more and more credibility with every reply you make. They are all just repetitive, rehashed, sad parodies of themselves that offer nothing new or constructive. You keep speaking of this olive branch that you are extending to those you have crossed swords with... offering your hand in peace and friendship. Here is the problem... for you, a resolution is only going to be acceptable if it's on your terms only. Terms that you really haven't defined. There is just no compromise in you whatsoever. Admit it, you aren't going to be happy unless every one of us says that we were wrong and you were right... and I'm sure you'd like us all to grovel while we do it. Sorry... ain't gonna happen.      And no... these are not attacks, they are observations that have been echoed repeatedly by a vast number of other members whom which I have no affiliation with. I do not belong to a club or gang geared towards singling you out. I merely share an increasingly common viewpoint with a lot of people who have voiced their displeasure as well.

I am however willing to meet you halfway. For the record I don't hate you or any other user on here. You are words on a screen to me and I have no real emotional investment in any of this. I do however strongly dislike behavior that unnecessarily ridicules a person simply because you do not like the questions they are asking or any other harmless dialogue they may put forth... just because you don't like it.

New customers are the lifeblood of any successful business and should be treated as such.  A co-operative and respectful atmosphere among the rest of the well established community here is also good for business. But lets take the business aspect out of the equation.... in the end, in any walk of life, it's just the right thing to do.

After reading Gerri's initial post, I believe it was well thought out, intelligent, and will work if it is implemented immediately and is strictly enforced. The fact that they came forth with the revised moderation rules shows a determination to not let this undermine their business. The are smart business people who would like nothing more than to simply focus their attention on the product, but they are not about to let a few poison pills or bad apples infect and eat away at their hard work from the inside out.

I predict that anybody whose makeup would suggest they might fall outside of the guidelines of 'acceptable' behavior in these forums will be dealt with... much more severely than in the past. For those individuals, it might be wise to have a session of introspection and ask yourselves just how much you want to be here. Personally, if I felt I didn't have the respect of my fellow forum members, I really don't know what would compel me to stay.

KC

This is exactly what I have been referring to, from both sides.  This would have been a GREAT post, instead of a good post, if it wouldn't have included the parts marked by me.

Basically to me this said "Here is a dig at you skip, but after I take this swipe at you, I'll meet you in the middle"

That is the way I saw it.