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Invelos Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion |
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HD DVD and Blu-ray |
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Registered: September 7, 2007 | Posts: 265 |
| Posted: | | | | My two year old neighbor thinks Cars is the bestest movie ever, does that count as a review? Should I ask him about SOUND (in case you don't know what audio is) and picture quality too? |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting stefc: Quote: Ah so me not mentioning how many PS3 games I have bought is IRREFUTABLE PROOF that I bought my PS3 solely to play Blu Ray is it? Or is the fact that I asked a question about why the PS3 cant upscale 480i MPEG2 on BD? (which it still can't do by the way). You are breathtakingly stupid. My PS3 came with two games - Resistance and Motorstorm, I have since bought Heavenly Sword on BD, 2 games over PSN, and 5 PS2 games, and even re-bought some PS1 games that I had lost. And in this case numbers have nothing to do with what my personal intention behind my purchase was. You have no idea why I own a PS3, and its laughable to hear you spew forth your ASSumed deductions.
So yet again you are WRONG. Please show me where I said IRREFUTABLE PROOF. Why do you make words up to try to use against me? I clearly didn't say that, so why do it? So NOW you are saying the PS3 is mainly for your recently MASSIVE 3 game titles, right? You don't play movies on it more than you play games on it, right? If not, what exactly ARE you saying about you PS3 usage? And, how soon can we expect this to change? You RECENTLY you bought a PS3 title. Good for you. | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting twojayz: Quote: First things first, last time I checked most people would agree that AUDIO QUALITY and SOUND QUALITY are the same. Do I need to edit the post so that it reads SOUND QUALITY, or SQ? Less than one tenth of a percent in average sound quality scores is negligible. I'm not sure why my calibration came into this discussion as it has nothing to do with anything here. Yes, I expect all of my equipment to perform to the highest potential it is capable of. Anyway, I did point out the "GAP" in the audio reviews of both formats, I mentioned it more than once. It's less than a tenth of a percent. However, as I have pointed out in other posts, when a head-to-head comparison is made on one title in both formats the HD version either matched or beat th BD version if every single case.
I agree that the reference pool is still lean but I can only work with the numbers that are there. The only way around that is to mathematically forecast future reviews based on the information available. I did the leg work, someone else can tackle that one!
I have no interest in wasting the next week of my life visiting four more sites only to come to the same conclusion. I can't believe I did it last night to be honest.
In the information I provided, it is broken down as to how many titles on each format got which score in both audio (sound) quality and picture quality. If the average is wrong, which someone claims it is with the audio quality, then prove it. Where did my numbers go askew? I have everything laid out there and have challenged everyone to check my math. The difference turned out to be less than one tenth of a percent difference, with BD having more titles and theoretically better transfers to begin with since they have more exclusives. If anyone can provide information to disprove my math then by all means go for it. You can't simply say I'm wrong. The numbers are there for you to double check. Obvioulsly I missed a title or two as you can see from the post, I looked at over 1000 numbers and missed 5 along the way. Big deal.
As for challenging the post as to how many were from neutral studios, I have no desire to now go back and gather that information because it is virtually irelevant. If a studio decides to "handicap" one format or the other that's not my problem. I'm simply going by the product that is put out there. If HD gets a DD+ track and BD gets DD then I can't do anything about that. It's interesting that they would choose to put a lesser soundtrack on the "greater" of the formats.
From what I could tell on HighDef Digest, the same reviewer would take the lead on a particular title and compare the different formats to each other. From that standpoint the subjectivity is limited as in both formats got relatively equal reviews. In only a few cases did the reviewer give a slight edge to the HD transfer, while still giving BD the praise (or lack thereof) that it deserved. That shows to me that there isn't any preference and a true comparison and review has been done.
For the record, the Corpses review doesn't matter. It is only available on BD so it can't be reasonably compared to itself on a format that it isn't available on. Look at the review of 300 though, that makes sense. One reviewer takes the HD and BD version and reviews the film and compares the two formats against each other. That means more than a single exclusive title review. I could find a HD exclusive that would have a review just as good but it doesn't matter because there is simply no comparison to be made, to anything.
As you could all tell from the post last night, I'm not hiding any information. I flat out said that BD has a NEGLIGBLE lead based on the reviews. How am I trying to spin that? Go figure... The first portion was answered by me on page 117 Posted: September 20, 2007 2:22 AM and page 116 Posted: September 20, 2007 2:00 AM. Crippled LCD titles that reach Blu-ray is a direct result of HD DVD being around. Sure it helped the BDA get there shi- together (glad for that) faster, but we could...this would just be wasted typing...nevermind. Just refer to the posts listed above. | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well. Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge? That would make this a lot simpler.
Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes. Just about anytime I posted the SI sales numbers, the YTD sales numbers, the week to week sales numbers, and the bandwidth specs. I will edit this post and add dates of posts where you shrugged/ignored that fact that it exists (when I come back). | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 254 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: So NOW you are saying the PS3 is mainly for your recently MASSIVE 3 game titles, right? Sadly thats not english so I'm finding it difficult to understand what you are trying to say. I bought my PS3 as a game console, to play PS3 (and PS1 and PS2) games. I will also watch BD movies on it until the format war is resolved and I buy a standalone player of whichever format wins (or dual format standalones are well priced). Quote: You don't play movies on it more than you play games on it, right? If not, what exactly ARE you saying about you PS3 usage? And, how soon can we expect this to change? Again not English so difficult to decipher, but it's possible your double negative was supposed to mean, "I play games on it more than I play movies". If so then the answer is yes, I have watched about 20 mins of 2 BD movies so far, versus completing Metal Gear Solid 1, Metal Gear Solid 2, Resident Evil 4, God of War 1, Heavenly Sword, and playing some Resistance, Motorstorm, Tekken DR, and Super Stardust HD. My PS3 usage will hopefully change as soon as there's some great PS3 titles, and lots of good region-free Disney, Fox and Sony BD exclusives, but sadly this doesn't look to be happening any time soon. |
| Registered: September 7, 2007 | Posts: 265 |
| Posted: | | | | Wow, you're rebuttal was truly breathtaking. In response to my inclusion of all audio quality scores for both formats you said, (I copied and pasted word for word...):
He included the audio score, but only went on about the .07 LEAD (not .07%...big difference) in PQ Blu-ray has (and how it doesn't count for much). That's what I was making reference to. The SQ of .20 is not a .20% difference. His math skills need work. That SQ lead is HUGE (and DESPITE being crippled by neutral studio title releases tailor made for HD DVD's lower bandwidth).
I say this, we're not dealing in percentages with that number. The average score has nothing to do with any sort of percentage...The average audio, well sound, damnit, SQ score is .02 higher than the average HD score...I'm not rain man but this makes perfect sense to me...Yes, I should not have put the % there, don't know why I did. IF you were to have paid attention to the post you would have realized the intended meaning of the numbers. You seem to be good at reading into things that aren't there. To have use the number as a percentage doesn't even make sense, which again I take responsbility for any misunderstanding that may have caused. That doesn't change the facts of the argument though...Barely any difference in quality.
Your quote from the grand 2a.m. post:
[b]Something else you didn't mention is how many of those titles are from NEUTRAL studios (of course, Paramount is now HD DVD exclusive). I just talked about the history of Warner Bros and Paramount on Blu-ray. THOSE titles are crippled on Blu-ray because they have adhere to HD DVD's limits in the name of neutrality.
Even with the neutral titles AND the bad PQ start, Blu-ray has STILL come from behind to have the BEST PQ overall (on HighDefDigest.com, DVDTalk.com, UpcomingDiscs.com, etc.). And, let's not even talk about the SQ. That's what can happen when studios start taking advantage of the Blu-ray specs instead of crippling Blu-ray titles with the lower bandwidth limits of HD DVD.[/b]
Hmmm, let's not even talk about sound quality, or as I prefer, audio quality...Ok, that's fine since there is nothing to talk about. BD holds the slightest of lead there, despite your best efforts to claim otherwise. .02 is not by any stretch of George Lucas' imagination a huge gap as you like to say.
You're simply grasping at anything you can. I used one of your own references to bring the full numbers to the board, which you then tried to discredit saying that YOUR OWN REFERENCE doesn't like BD as much as HD...The brilliance of that is truly mind boggling.
And now you're caught in this trap of talking about LCD titles. Even though BD has a larger percentage of exclusives out there they still can't pull ahead by a meaningful amount.
Why aren't the studio exclusives to BD not taking advantage of the full capabilities of the technology? That is stupid if it's a choice. Or perhaps they are doing everything they can do with the technology in terms of PQ and SQ.
Once again, on dual releases if a studio decides to use different soundtracks that's not my problem. They are releasing them that way for a reason. You can't use the excuse that HD limitations prevent the better BD experience when HD DVD is actually getting better audio tracks...Think about that argument for a minute and explain how the lack of "better technology" affords HD the opportunity to use a better audio track and then forces BD to use a lesser one. Umm, if anything it should be the other way around.
I want some toast... | | | Last edited: by twojayz |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well. Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge? That would make this a lot simpler.
Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes. Just about anytime I posted the SI sales numbers, the YTD sales numbers, the week to week sales numbers, and the bandwidth specs. I will edit this post and add dates of posts where you shrugged/ignored that fact that it exists (when I come back). You go ahead and edit it but make sure that all your numbers were bassed on scientific processes. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well. Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge? That would make this a lot simpler.
Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes. Just about anytime I posted the SI sales numbers, the YTD sales numbers, the week to week sales numbers, and the bandwidth specs. I will edit this post and add dates of posts where you shrugged/ignored that fact that it exists (when I come back).
You go ahead and edit it but make sure that all your numbers were bassed on scientific processes. How can SI numbers, YTD numbers, weekly numbers, and bandwidth specs be based on anything else? | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles | | | Last edited: by Ascended_Saiyan |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well. Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge? That would make this a lot simpler.
Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes. Just about anytime I posted the SI sales numbers, the YTD sales numbers, the week to week sales numbers, and the bandwidth specs. I will edit this post and add dates of posts where you shrugged/ignored that fact that it exists (when I come back).
You go ahead and edit it but make sure that all your numbers were bassed on scientific processes. How can SI numbers, YTD numbers, weekly numbers, and bandwidth specs be based on anything else? I picked 2 just as an example... YTD and weekly numbers are not based on scientific processes. They are based on sales figures reported by specific retailers. Are you sure you know what a scientific process is? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 1,127 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Quoting Unicus69:
Quote: Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote: Funny, my many other posts with hard numbers based off scientific processes were shrugged off by you as well. Why don't you just say that just about anything that shows Blu-ray's advantages, you refuse to acknowledge? That would make this a lot simpler.
Show me one post where I shrugged off numbers based on scientific processes. Just about anytime I posted the SI sales numbers, the YTD sales numbers, the week to week sales numbers, and the bandwidth specs. I will edit this post and add dates of posts where you shrugged/ignored that fact that it exists (when I come back).
You go ahead and edit it but make sure that all your numbers were bassed on scientific processes. How can SI numbers, YTD numbers, weekly numbers, and bandwidth specs be based on anything else?
I picked 2 just as an example...
YTD and weekly numbers are not based on scientific processes. They are based on sales figures reported by specific retailers. Are you sure you know what a scientific process is? GoogleThat leads to here. Scientific Process/MethodQuote: Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning,[1] the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. Am I close? For instance, there are some things that don't need to go through EVERY step in the scientific method to be proven. In the YTD and weekly numbers, the THEORY could be that Blu-ray sells more copies of titles than HD DVD (on YTD sales and/or weekly sales). The OBSERVATION and EXPERIMENTATION portion would be to have an enivronment set-up for these HD format to be sold and track the purchases (already done via merchants and Nielsen Videoscan). The FORMULATION of hypotheses is that Blu-ray DOES indeed sell more copies of titles than HD DVD. Rinse and repeat. You brought the cross and the nails, but I won't nail you to it. I just had some great news, so you get a free pass on the stuff for today. Of course, you will just spit in my face for it, but who cares today? | | | To err is human... ----------- 473 Blu-ray Titles |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ascended_Saiyan: Quote: Am I close? Yes. Quote: For instance, there are some things that don't need to go through EVERY step in the scientific method to be proven. In the YTD and weekly numbers, the THEORY could be that Blu-ray sells more copies of titles than HD DVD (on YTD sales and/or weekly sales). The OBSERVATION and EXPERIMENTATION portion would be to have an enivronment set-up for these HD format to be sold and track the purchases (already done via merchants and Nielsen Videoscan). The FORMULATION of hypotheses is that Blu-ray DOES indeed sell more copies of titles than HD DVD. Rinse and repeat.
You brought the cross and the nails, but I won't nail you to it. I just had some great news, so you get a free pass on the stuff for today. Of course, you will just spit in my face for it, but who cares today? I won't spit in your face and I don't need a free pass because you are wrong. For your example to be valid the data...in this case the sales figures...must come from a random sampling of retailers. In other words, all the retailers must make their data available. The fact that they only take data from specific retailers throws a wrench into your scientific process. Sorry, no cigar. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,321 |
| Posted: | | | | I'd like to go back to the average PQ/AQ scores for a minute. I was curious to compare the production years on the releases. After all, it stands to reason that newer material has a better chance of blowing away a reviewer than older material. Good reviewers should take the age of the film into account when reviewing, but I'm sure that doesn't always happen.
So I created two new databases (HD DVD & Blu-ray) and entered every R1 profile. I didn't do any type of filtering for duplicates (and there are duplicate profiles out there) or anything else. I just took the easy way out and grabbed everything. I ended up with 375 HD DVD profiles and 395 Blu-ray profiles. Then I exported the production years to Excel and started playing.
First of all the difference between the two was much closer than I expected. I would guess WB has a lot to do with that. But there goes the theory that HD DVD appeals to the old crowd. Still, there were differences.
HD DVD Blu-ray 1930's 1 0 1940's 1 0 1950's 6 2 1960's 10 7 1970's 17 14 1980's 40 35 1990's 67 56 2000's 233 281
Pre-2000's HD DVD has 142 vs. 114 Blu-ray.
The average production year for HD DVD is 1997.5 and for Blu-ray it's 1999.7.
So, there's a lot less difference than I expected. Still, there is a difference and it might have some bearing on the minute differences in PQ/AQ.
I guess the point is, those's numbers look good for the Blu-ray side, but in the end, they're basically useless as raw values like that. There's just not enough context around them to give them any real meaning. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here. Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. | | | Last edited: by Mark Harrison |
| Registered: September 7, 2007 | Posts: 265 |
| Posted: | | | | Mark, interesting post. I agree that the age of any film will reflect in the overall quality of the transfer to either format. I have seen age mentioned in reviews before but never paid much mind to it. I generally expect that older films will look and sound "worse". |
| Registered: September 7, 2007 | Posts: 265 |
| Posted: | | | | On a different note...How many of you out there think that this holiday season will give HD DVD a big boost all around in both hardware and software sales.
HD DVD has three of the summers biggest movies being released as format exclusives; Transformers, Shrek the Third and The Bourne Ultimatum. Any of these three are arguably the biggest releases on the format to date.
The questions are this:
How will any of these single titles impact the war and what will the impact be collectively?
Hardware sales for HD players (stand alone) are expected to top the 400,000 mark through the holiday season. Will these three titles impact player sales?
I look forward to the replies, mostly... |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Although I can see those titles having some influence over hardware sales, I don't forsee a large increase in the sense that "The Matrix" almost single-handedly sold all those DVD players way back when. Similarly with Spidey 3 on blu-ray - it'll have some sway, but it's not going to shake the market. | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 844 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote: There's just not enough context around them to give them any real meaning. I asked The ASC to provide context a few pages ago. He insulted me. 'Nuff said. |
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Invelos Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion |
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